Curse

Missing HB · May 17, 2011, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Are people doing to understand it's conset + bonus items that makes you " godlike" or ..??
SF alone is a joke really , it just becomes OP when you have a few items such as essence of celerity on you....

Some players who don't get it should just really try the following :
- try UW/DoA HM with random heroes + 1-2 healer heroes... You probably either get rolled fast either take an hour to do an area
- try the same with using a conset... Surprisingly, noone from your team is dying whereas you can aggro whole map.....

Also pretty sure that a team of 8 paragons( with correct builds) using consets should be able to finish UW in an hour or so....

Bright Star Shine · May 17, 2011, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

No. People are saying that UW should be completable with balanced way and that there should be a healthy mix of efficient builds that can complete UW. There should never only be one build (and it's variants) that is significantly more effective than all other possibilities (including balanced way). All builds should be equal in overall strength and weakness. Well, they have definately killed the balance (not balanced builds) that was supposed to be present in this game.

There are, and plenty. Back when our guild was in the YUM alliance, they used to run a build called YUMway, which only used like 2 terras to do mnts and pools I think and some other stuff, and the rest was done by the main team, which consisted out of dervishes and whatnot to scythe down stuff. They did regular runs of 55mins-1h10. They still do and their build is pretty effective I hear..

darktyco · May 17, 2011, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Again, the issue isn't sc or having totally balanced team builds. It is about giving people without such a huge chunk of time the ability to actually clear the area. I have completed DoA several times, with people and with 7 heroes, but rarely ever in a full run because of time constraints. I actually wouldn't care if the mobs were made more difficult to balance this out, difficulty isn't the issue in the first place (other than the gimmick quest difficulty others have noted).

Bellatrixa · May 17, 2011, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

There are, and plenty. Back when our guild was in the YUM alliance, they used to run a build called YUMway, which only used like 2 terras to do mnts and pools I think and some other stuff, and the rest was done by the main team, which consisted out of dervishes and whatnot to scythe down stuff. They did regular runs of 55mins-1h10. They still do and their build is pretty effective I hear..

Correct. The builds have changed slightly and are constantly being worked on and improved but yes. The builds are not mine to share however therefore I don't go against wishes and post em on PvX. I believe ToA also have their own version of UWSC as well.

It's not all terraway, that's just what all the pugs will run.

An hour of my time to clear an elite area is reasonable to me. Before I started doing YUMways in my ally, I found 2.5-3 hours reasonable for UW considering the value of the items therein.

I really don't understand why this is suddenly a huge issue. Did people run out of other things to complain about?

Xiaquin · May 17, 2011, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellatrixa

/snip

See the post below (again, if applicable).

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

Again, the issue isn't sc or having totally balanced team builds. It is about giving people without such a huge chunk of time the ability to actually clear the area.

I actually wouldn't care if the mobs were made more difficult to balance this out, difficulty isn't the issue in the first place (other than the gimmick quest difficulty others have noted).

This is the raw deal you get with UW: tedious challenges that have slim margin for error, for a small chance at moderately valuable items and a very tiny chance at rare items with a very real threat of failure, triggered by more than your own deaths.

Two to three hours is not only a significant portion of the day to play in one area, it's damn downright unhealthy (evidenced by the convenient break reminders). All for loot opportunity? Astoundingly bad game design. No area should require multiple breaks without so much as your Internet connection dropping, and that's before adding in the complexity and stress of trying to hold together your group of fellow zombies at their own computers for the entire period of time. With respect, that is what's unreasonable.

Bellatrixa · May 17, 2011, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Two to three hours is not only a significant portion of the day to play in one area, it's damn downright unhealthy (evidenced by the convenient break reminders). All for loot opportunity? Astoundingly bad game design. No area should require multiple breaks without so much as your Internet connection dropping, and that's before adding in the complexity and stress of trying to hold together your group of fellow zombies at their own computers for the entire period of time. With respect, that is what's unreasonable.

Ok, the way I see it is like this:

There are methods for clearing UW in HM in a small amount of time (1 hour for an elite area being perfectly reasonable to me). It's up to people whether they use those methods or something that takes considerably longer. I could decide to vanquish Morostav Trail via MTSC and take 20 mins OR take a group of heroes with bar bars and take the best part of an hour.

There is nothing forcing you to do UW in HM for HoM. There is nothing forcing you to do it in HM full stop. There's nothing stopping you from joining a SC or devising your own balancedway builds to take ~1hr.

I honestly see no feasible way of splitting up UW into sections or saving progress without making the area more exploitable than it already is and ruining the economy more than you claim SCers are. The only real problem comes when EVERYONE is raping an area then yes, items will become valueless. I wouldn't say that any drop from UW turns into merch fodder unless it's an end chest item with an undesirable skin/stats or a drop that will ofc be non-inscribable with the same deal. I know people who have done UWSC after UWSC with no super-massive expensive reward other than ectos that they could have earned in less time by farming on a rit. When you factor in them popping a conset, they've made even less. On the other hand, I know people who have had multiple DSRs/mini smites. Had two people in the alliance get mini Dhuums in 2 days. It's all a matter of luck from that end chest and you stand just as much chance in a SC team of getting double scroll and onyx as you do something decent.

For me, this whole thread just seems to be about laziness. I COULD take 3 hours to clear UW every time if I wanted to, however I don't want to and I have the same options open to me as everyone else out there. Just sayin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

Again, the issue isn't sc or having totally balanced team builds. It is about giving people without such a huge chunk of time the ability to actually clear the area.

Again, the builds that Bright and I are referring to take an hour for that team and don't require huge amounts of skill. If you think 1 hour is too much, then gtfo elite areas. You'd do more damage making UW clearable in 20 mins than leaving as it is now.

Missing HB · May 17, 2011, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Two to three hours is not only a significant portion of the day to play in one area, it's damn downright unhealthy (evidenced by the convenient break reminders). All for loot opportunity? Astoundingly bad game design. No area should require multiple breaks without so much as your Internet connection dropping, and that's before adding in the complexity and stress of trying to hold together your group of fellow zombies at their own computers for the entire period of time. With respect, that is what's unreasonable.

Well sure , but if everything that takes more than 1 hour is bad , shall i argue about Heroes Ascent full runs ?? ( not even mentionning restarts , long fights , case of several hall wins , that can take 3 hours or more...)
Let's be honest , how many ( pugs 80% of time though) people join a team in HA or DoA whereas they only have 30mn free??

But once again , that's the huge difference any " old player " will say... Almost anything from long time required a big amount of time : TopK, UW, FoW , HA , etc....( even droks runs required long time lol..)
That's not especially bad to be able to clear areas faster , but it just shouldn't lead to 90% people abusing it

Essence Snow · May 17, 2011, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Well sure , but if everything that takes more than 1 hour is bad , shall i argue about Heroes Ascent full runs ?? ( not even mentionning restarts , long fights , case of several hall wins , that can take 3 hours or more...)
Let's be honest , how many ( pugs 80% of time though) people join a team in HA or DoA whereas they only have 30mn free??

That may be part of the reason HA is basically dead...and why there are threads like "HA in crisis" "GvG in crisis"...etc...

30mins is a long shot away from 2-3 hours in a sitting..at least make the time comparable plz

Skyy High · May 17, 2011, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Omg! I have to pay 7,000 more gold to get this done! Are you kidding me? 7k? That's the big difference?

No, that was only part of what I said. What about this part:

Quote:

Furthermore, in the situation you describe, where the player just farms one area over and over again, they're never going to get the end chest, which is where the real money is made.

7k is enough of a cut into the profits of a single run that people would be incentivized to do as many areas as possible without leaving. Maybe they could change the prices up a bit, who knows, point is that the system that you want is there in the game already. The end chest profits will take care of people who just zone in to clear one particular zone over and over again (as if that's not what people do already...). Just make it so that every time you go in you have to clear the Chamber, then you can proceed to whatever area you want and complete it, boom, done. How is that any more exploitable for farming than what we have now? The only advantage gained is that you can complete a quest, leave, come back, and pick up where you left off.

Bright Star Shine · May 17, 2011, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

No, that was only part of what I said. What about this part:

7k is enough of a cut into the profits of a single run that people would be incentivized to do as many areas as possible without leaving. Maybe they could change the prices up a bit, who knows, point is that the system that you want is there in the game already. The end chest profits will take care of people who just zone in to clear one particular zone over and over again (as if that's not what people do already...). Just make it so that every time you go in you have to clear the Chamber, then you can proceed to whatever area you want and complete it, boom, done. How is that any more exploitable for farming than what we have now? The only advantage gained is that you can complete a quest, leave, come back, and pick up where you left off.

So you would like to add end chests to each area, with rewards that increase once you complete more areas? So you want to cut up UW in parts, not only, but also you're gonna rewards SC'ers even MORE? Sounds like a jolly plan to me...

chuckles79 · May 17, 2011, 09:16 PM // 21:16

You know what would end this pointless thread?
People going to ToA, highest dist. available and "LFG UW full clear". Just PUG the SOB.

UW with heroes suck and there are a lot of people who are incensed at the idea that we HAVE to roll a sin in order to enjoy the UW (with stones you can't even do that anymore).

The ONLY thing that is going to fix this, is people PUGing the UW, learning how it works and what to bring and not to bring.
The only reason people don't PUG it because you have FAILway groups going without a real tank for 4H and idiots taking quests that they should not.

First time I got to Dhuum (after he was added) was with a PuG and we did pretty good. Someone dusted off their ancient Obby Tank warrior and we rolled it.

So forget SCs and bring your your necros, paras, and dervs. Work with your team to make sure you are all on the same page and pick one person to lead, call, and take quests.

It isn't that hard of an area, you just have to take your time.

impulsion · May 17, 2011, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Revert UW to how it used to be before Dhuum (so its easy to do) and remove the end chest (so nobody makes any money). Problem?

Net The Nabi · May 17, 2011, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Revert UW to how it used to be before Dhuum (so its easy to do) and remove the end chest (so nobody makes any money). Problem?

Increase ecto droprate and I love this.

Bellatrixa · May 17, 2011, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

The ONLY thing that is going to fix this, is people PUGing the UW, learning how it works and what to bring and not to bring....It isn't that hard of an area, you just have to take your time.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying, but if you've read this thread, the impression I'm getting is that people don't want to invest any time, they just want a push button to win solution. Even us ohsomean SCers have given people viable solutions to their issues without the need to change UW and it's just "BAWWWWW IT TAEKS TOO MUCH TIEM!!!1!".

At the end of the day, sometimes you just have to accept that if you don't have the time to do something, you don't have the time. It will not be end of world if you can't do something due to time constraints. Where will it end? If you don't have a free hour, should UW be fully completable in 20 mins? Hey, why doesn't Anet just give you the statue for scrolling in there instead!

Time management. Learn it. I know people who DO work full time, have kids and can still bloody spare a few hours to game as well. Heck, my alliance leader is amazing in that respect. Works, has a family, trains people for SCs as well as working on characters. If you want to prioritise your RL commitments (as well you should) and not make time for the more challenging content, don't be QQing that the game is too long/hard and cause nerfs for those of us who enjoy somewhat of a challenge.

As Bright and others have said, no matter what changes are made, SCers will find a way to do it faster. Even if there isn't a set SC, some people will always be able to clear the area faster. Not everyone is of the same ability level, therefore the skilled will always be able to out perform others. Take Jeydra and EFG there. To me they are the most skilled players that I have come across with heroes and yet they are simply using what everyone has available to them. SCers (be they tways, balancedways or others) are simply using what everyone else has available to them. I really don't see the need for a huge QQ-fest every time someone does something faster/more effectively than someone else.

Skyy High · May 17, 2011, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

So you would like to add end chests to each area, with rewards that increase once you complete more areas? So you want to cut up UW in parts, not only, but also you're gonna rewards SC'ers even MORE? Sounds like a jolly plan to me...

No! God, how did you get that from my post? I was referring to the end chest that was already there; it's existence almost ensures that the most profitable way to play UW is to clear it and open the chest, which should discourage anyone from using any of these ideas to simply solo farm one region. Although, again, I'm really unclear how exactly any of these ideas accomplish that, since you can already go anywhere you want in UW after doing the Chamber.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellatrixa

I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying, but if you've read this thread, the impression I'm getting is that people don't want to invest any time, they just want a push button to win solution.

Spending more time on something in one sitting doesn't make it any harder. DoA's difficulty is unchanged whether you do it all at once or piecemeal, it just means you can spread it out over a few days when you have the time. Comparing this to "push button to win" is asinine; every single player would still have to beat 4H, UWG, etc to beat UW, they just wouldn't have to do them back to back. Barring DP (which, considering how prevalent DP removers are, is completely irrelevant at this point), what extra challenge does one have to overcome to complete UW in one go with a balanced party compared to 8 runs, besides possible eyestrain and ass fatigue?

"Join a speedclear like everyone else" IS NOT A F***ING SOLUTION! I, unlike you, haven't given up on playing GW how it was meant to be played. I like playing in a party, working together, not gathering 8 solo builds into one group and having a time of it. Furthermore, your solution doesn't work for anyone who plays with heroes, or duos, or basically does anything else except play with a SC team or an organized group of 8 who can run "YUMway". Stop pretending like you're presenting us with an obvious solution, because you've just side-stepped the problem entirely. UW became more difficult and time consuming because ANet was trying to stop SCs; they failed at that, SCs are still prevalent, and the only groups that got hurt were the balanced groups. It's time for a little love to be thrown back at the balanced groups, and this would do it.

I don't care if SCs do it faster. Of course they will, that's the point. I just want to be able to do it in a balanced PUG in less than 2 hours. This will in no way affect the economy or SCs, because you'll still be doing it an order of magnitude or so faster than any balanced team, so the rate at which UW is cleared will not appreciably increase. It won't decrease the difficulty of the area, it'll just bring the time commitment back to reasonable levels.

Bellatrixa · May 17, 2011, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

"Join a speedclear like everyone else" IS NOT A F***ING SOLUTION! I, unlike you, haven't given up on playing GW how it was meant to be played. I like playing in a party, working together, not gathering 8 solo builds into one group and having a time of it. Furthermore, your solution doesn't work for anyone who plays with heroes, or duos, or basically does anything else except play with a SC team or an organized group of 8 who can run "YUMway".

I did point out that YUMway isn't the only way to do a balancedway clear of UW and that other guilds/alliances also have their own methods. Heck, you'd know that by simply looking at the Team builds section on PvX! I mentioned that ToA have their ways (different to YUMway) and I'd put money on other guilds and alliances having their ways of clearing. Back in my very first guild we had tactics for UW which were by far from speedy but still utilised certain mechanics to get through. The runs would take 2-2.5 hours depending on how much experience people had with UW, which given that we were mostly inexperienced at elite areas barring one or two people, wasn't too shabby imo. That was a guild lead by anti-SC people, just fyi.

For those who want to SC there are multiple ways of getting in on them, all of which have been covered.

For those who don't:

- Find people who want to do UW balancedway.
- Use PvX to devise builds. Do your research. Pay someone to make your builds for you.
- Use these forums to find other people who want to do UW with you.
- Buy a run of UW or join runs that are posted on these forums.
- Get your guild together to come up with decent methods of clearing UW as a balancedway team.
- Use other people's builds.

All of these things have been suggested in this thread. Mind you, with the ridiculous length it's gotten to, the amount of off-topic arguing and back and forth, I'm not shocked that you haven't been bothering to digest every single post.

Also, who said I don't do anything balancedway anymore? I fully enjoy doing Slaver's Exile and actually advocate MTSC being open to any profession and help devise builds for it to be that way unlike those who are all "ZOMFG U NID 5 WOTAS OR U FAIL!!!11!!". I'm a huge fan of making up builds so that fast and efficient clears are available to all professions, hence my telling people to get off their butts and put some work into what they want. Why should you get the rewards for putting in no effort at all?

So, if you want to do balancedway PUG groups:

1. Make builds for every profession
2. Get builds out there
3. Make those builds popular
4. ???
5. Profit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Barring DP (which, considering how prevalent DP removers are, is completely irrelevant at this point),

If this is indeed true, how come so many pugs don't seem to use it?

Just askin ;D

Xiaquin · May 17, 2011, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellatrixa

For me, this whole thread just seems to be about laziness. I COULD take 3 hours to clear UW every time if I wanted to, however I don't want to and I have the same options open to me as everyone else out there. Just sayin.

I disagree (can't speak for everyone else). I see SC and similar methods as an answer to the problem of bad game design: tedious content that people don't really want to play. Yes it's successful, popular and in many cases requires skill, something end-game content should be, except it's for the wrong reasons.

When your players call your bosses "jokes" and hold the greatest challenge as overcoming your design rather than your foes, that's a problem you deserve to be taken to task over, it's not the cry of lazy players refusing to swallow it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

That's not especially bad to be able to clear areas faster , but it just shouldn't lead to 90% people abusing it

Well I can't comment on PvP, but I'd probably feel similarly frustrated if I'm limited not by skill, but needing a stretch of hours in one sitting to accomplish something there. Needless to say, it will be very interesting to see how structured PvP works in GW2.

Neith · May 18, 2011, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Some of you are missing the point of the OP. They aren't wanting UW to be easily done, there's nothing wrong with asking for the UW to be like slavers or DoA. If they do that then yes I do believe they should make the UW harder. I miss the UW that was before this most recent update of removing a few foes from 4h. I usually monk there and enjoy the challenge that quest and frozenwind give. But also if you can't dedicate 2.5 hours for a balanced party for 10 quests plus Dhuum why play? A HM run takes 3 hours. Im sure you've sat down for that long to watch a movie or TV, GW works the same way. If the UW were to be like DoA or slavers then they need to make it harder. Sorry but if they do that then they need to get rid of sc's also. I am from that anti speed clear guild bella was talking about.

Bellatrixa · May 18, 2011, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

When your players call your bosses "jokes"

In all seriousness, Dhuum is a joke. It's only his stupidly high HP that makes beating him tedious. Pain Inverter makes the battle laughable as long as you're hitting Judgements with it. And that was the same deal before I did any form of UWSC. Lor, I'm sure you remember taking me into UW for my first time and you and Gary explaining to me how to beat Dhuum. I also remember you guys being such hardasses and never letting me do any elite area in NM! XD

Robin Hood Uk · May 18, 2011, 12:38 AM // 00:38

The main problem with the seemingly popular suggestion of breaking it up like DoA or slavers is pretty simple.

You can change builds inbetween parts. As stated before, UW is designed to be done all in one, if it's split up theres nothing stopping you from stomping all the easymode quests with rojway or whatever you fancy running, exiting, bringing in a tank and doing 4H without any problems.

If there was a way around that, meaning you couldn't change builds in between, then it would be happy days. Unfortunately there isn't, so changing it really would dumb down the entire area.

Could be mildly countered by adding some sort of incentive to do it all in one sitting (DoA gem stacking for full runs, for example), but for that to work the end chest would really need to be removed, as that is the main goal when entering UW if you want to earn good money, and that would just be going back a step.